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Info from PaizoCON!

 
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Glammo



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 452
Location: Finding paths and breakin' hearts

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Info from PaizoCON! Reply with quote

Link!

Very Happy
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Will



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 395
Location: This Very Ring

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh. The more I read about it, the closer PRPG sounds to 3.5...which makes me wonder why they're packaging it up into a stand-alone RPG book for $50, rather than a $20 d20 splatbook.

The whole point of this is to patch up the weak points of 3.5, right? Did they ever say what weak points those were? Is there any indication that the new rules do anything about them?

I dunno. I should reserve judgment. I guess I was looking forward to something akin to Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might and its sequel, and PRPG is sounding more like a handful of house rules that are changing things Just Because.

(Then again, I remember the "just to be different" complaint being leveled against pre-production 4e...so I'd better take myself with a grain of salt! Razz)
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izzat



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 276
Location: Will's living room

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Huh. The more I read about it, the closer PRPG sounds to 3.5...which makes me wonder why they're packaging it up into a stand-alone RPG book for $50, rather than a $20 d20 splatbook.


Monte Cook said something very similar about 3.5's release.

The major reason for putting out the book (the reason they did it as publishers and not gamers) is that the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM are all out of print. We take that for granted as players, because it's easier to track down one or two secondhand copies compared to twenty-five hundred for their subscribers. So that's the bottom line, 'cuz Iron Erik Mona says so.

The weak points that Jason Buhlmann has often cited are the combat maneuvers (especially grappling), underpowered spellcasters at low levels, overpowered spellcasters at high levels, high level play in general, CR/ECL, and spells slowing down gameplay. I have inferred that they're also trying to curtail power-gaming (people abandoning base classes for prestige classes, level dipping, etc.).

The teases do appear to dial the Beta closer to 3rd/3.5, but we'll see. We can always just keep using the Beta.

PS I hyphenated power-gaming because I know Mike hates compound words. I love you, Mike! XOXOXOXO!
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Thomas
Work Safe is for the timid.


Last edited by izzat on Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Glammo



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 452
Location: Finding paths and breakin' hearts

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet you combine "level dipping" into one word! Your love is false!
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Will



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 395
Location: This Very Ring

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, good point about the out-of-printedness of 3.5. I suppose. I wonder how many copies Paizo will sell to folks who don't already own the core D&D books? No way to tell, I suspect.

I guess my main question is: are those weak points Buhlman pointed out actually fixed, to any degree? (I'm honestly asking.) I know the final version isn't out yet, but, like, is the fighter class actually more on-par with spellcasters than it was in 3e? etc. If the answer is no, then what's the point?

I guess we'll see. Smile

Mike, how much for your extra copies of BoEM 1 & 2?? Smile

-Will

P.S. GLOOMDEEP WARCHANTER FIREWARDEN!!!1
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Glammo



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 452
Location: Finding paths and breakin' hearts

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVILMAN of BADPLACE trained to be a DARKSTEALER from the age of TWENTYONE. Upon graduating from the BOTTOMCELLAR of the ONYXBOOK Academy, he launced his career as a SNEAKTHIEF and soon found himself in the company of the MAGEWYRM GRRDRAGON. Casting a spell of CHARMMAN over EVILMAN, GRRDRAGON had a nice PEONPAWN to wage a shadow war against GRINSMILE, the MEANDUKE of NATIONSTATE CITY, the CITYSTATE of the nation of POPULOUSNATION.

EVILMAN was overcome by CHALLENGEDIFFICULTY, but eventually broke the spell and fell in love with PRETTYLADY, the WARRIORBLADE LADYPRINCE of RUBYWALLCASTLE. EVILMAN then changed his name to EMERALDKNIGHT DIAMONDKNIFE.


Oh, you can buy them for... a... pizza.
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izzat



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 276
Location: Will's living room

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Mike - I swear that was a typo. Any other compound words are genuine indications of infidelity.)

Just going by the Beta, I think a lot of positive changes were made. Many spells are simpler, like Dispel Magic. The base classes have a lot of punch to them, and even the sorcerer has incentive to focus on the class. We'll have to wait and see for the final math on combat maneuvers, but the Beta was a step in the right direction.

The most pressing concern for me is high-level play, which we have not seen a lot of material. We will have some insight to the CR/ECL system come Saturday.

My new icon is the fabled GRRDRAGON.
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Thomas
Work Safe is for the timid.


Last edited by izzat on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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quakemonkey



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 246
Location: at 4e's house, drinkin tea

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glammo, your epic tale following the exploits of EVILMAN of BADPLACE was awesome : )

Obviously I like 4e and feel that it pretty much fixed everything I didn't like about 3x, but ignoring all that I do think Pathfinder is an improvement. Still not enough to make me wanna play it over 4e though.

I really wanna know if they balanced the other classes to spell casters and if so how. Short of a massive over hall of spell power levels, I don't see anyway that they could have. Also all the different BABs make it hard to balance monster ACs at higher levels right? Doesn't it end up that only fighter types can really hit anything at high level or that cant be right, cuz rogue still manage to..

My biggest gripes have always been:
1. how much more powerful casters are at high levels
2. how multiclassing screws with caster progression
3. how prestige classes make you take feats you don't wanna take (though at least you get more now!)
4. how different feat usefulness/effectiveness is all over the place and sometimes shitty ones are prerequisites for the ones you want or sometimes the prerequisite is ok, but once you get the improved version the prerequisite becomes useless, for example: once you have improve cleave, cleave becomes a wasted feat. the cleave feat should just improve with level or whatever! FEATS HAVE FEELINGS TOO! RAWR1!!!!!
5. how some classes get way too few skill points
6. attacks of opportunity were a good addition, but the way it is set up in 3.5 at least, it makes it way to annoying to try different combat maneuvers unless you have the specific feat for it. Maybe this has been fixed in PFrpg with the whole CMB thingy
7. how long it takes to stat stuff up as a DM
8. the game has 20+ levels for some reason, even though the game breaks down at 15th -16th - I guess I'm talking about the math of the game here. Power level wise i think it starts to get a bit crazy at 12th or 13th or maybe its 13th or 14th...anyway you get my point
9. spell casters are way too complicated
10. the complexity of all characters at higher levels becomes more of a liability then an asset to game play and fun
11. space reserved cuz i know i'm forgetting something

There is a lot i like about 3.5 too though, I'm just not gonna list it : ) Oh ok I'll give ya one thing:

1. dragons

I have my doubts about PF addressing these issues, but I'll wait and see.
I am anxious to see what they've done, so I hope I haven't come off as overly critical!

I don't buy the whole "the books are outta print" reasoning. Heck you can still get a complete set of 1st edition books easily and cheaply. This doesn't mean I think that Paizo shouldn't be releasing PF as a standalone RPG though, I would do it too. They need the monies to keep making stuff, I even heard that they have to actually pay their employees to work! So much for the whole love of the game crap! lol They have made more changes in PF than were made with 3.5 and I think it is deserving of its own edition/book/whatever you wanna call it. Saying that 3.5 is outta print and hard to find is ridiculous though (out print fine ya whatever, technically true i guess heh). Also if you're a paizo subscriber, you have at the very least a set of the 3.5 core books. Heck, the only reason Paizo is able to make and sell PF is because their are people who play 3.5 and don't wanna switch to 4e.

I'm a 4e fanboy for now though, just waiting until I can be a 5e fanboy or become a grumpy old 4e hold out! : ) xoxoxoxx maybe o but then definitely x

I never looked at the BoEM or BoEM2, are they a lot different than 3.5?
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